So maybe the weight is wrong for the Mantula ? Has anyone weighed their Marcos ? Maybe Autocar got their data from a dodgy source ?
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OldNoccer |
Weight of a Marcos - any model |
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When thinking about power to weight ratios, I have always based my estimate of the weight of my Mantula as about 1 tonne. A road test in Autocar quoted the
rigid axle 3.5 Mantula as 2077lb (942kg), but today I was looking at the road test on the new Lotus Evora and see it weighs1382kg - now I don't understand
how my steel chassis V8 Marcos can be 440kg lighter than the aluminium chassis V8 Evora ! 440kg is huge - that is four 17 stone people.
So maybe the weight is wrong for the Mantula ? Has anyone weighed their Marcos ? Maybe Autocar got their data from a dodgy source ?
There's a lot of talk these days about green transport. Well, I am ahead of the game, I already have green transport ... British racing green.
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Gary Harman |
#1 | |||
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Im sure the LMs and Mantis are between 1050 and 1150 kg so that sounds about right for yours.
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MarcosMantula |
#2 | |||
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I had my Mantula weighed and with a bit less than 1/2 tank of fuel came in at 1010kg and with me in it 1120kg. I have now lost quite a bit of weight
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dparslow |
Power to weight ratios | #3 | ||
MarcosMantula wrote: The Unofficial Marcos website has all the weights of the Marcos models on the technical page. My Mantula spyder ( live axle) originally with empty fuel tank, empty boot and original Revolution wheels was less than 900kgs. Once you start to upgrade with tubular wishbones, bigger brakes, anti-roll bars, bigger wheels, upgraded ice etc the weight does creep up. However, a Mantis weighs the best part of 1200kgs Therefore, the Mantula will always have the potential to be much quicker than it`s later and rather heavier brethren of the Marque. The power to weight ratio of the car has always been one of the main considerations throughout the rebuild and developent of NCM 109H. I have always used the power to weight ratio of the Mantis or LM500 as the benchmark figures to equal or improve upon. As much as I like both models in their own right and as road cars what great cars they are, but in standard form they are just not quick enough Mantis 325bhp and 300ftlbs realistically and 1200kgs. Too many variants to quote LM figures but similar enough to the Mantis for this excercise. 271bhp per tonne and 250ftlbs per tonne. Now get a Mantula (@900kgs) with even a standard 4.6 Range Rover engine at 225bhp and 270ftlbs and you get; 250bhp per tonne and 300ftlbs per tonne. We are still down a touch on the power, but take a look at the torque ratio, well ahead of the later cars and this is what you want for that overtaking manouver. Improve the efficiency of the engine a little to 250bhp and 300ftlbs and we have: 278bhp per tonne and 333ftlbs per tonne and a car that is an exceptionally quick car
It`s not more power you need, it`s less weight and a few subtle mods and some not so subtle!
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OldNoccer |
#4 | |||
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Excellent info folks - and have just looked at the unofficial web page - and it says 889kg for 3.5 mantula and 1075kg for the 3.9 mantara. As I have a 3.9 (now
4.5) IRS Mantula, I wonder which one I am nearest to. Surely the larger engine wasn't 190kg heavier. Maybe my guess of 1000kg is pretty near.
Prior to fitting, my 4.5 engine had 254bhp on the dyno (and 305 ft lbs), but that was about 35000 miles ago ! However it works out, I still get a power to weight ratio that is really up there with some fairly fast cars - better than the latest Lotus I wonder if there is a weighbridge anywhere nearby - suddenly I want to know if it is nearer 900kg or 1100kg ? Steve
There's a lot of talk these days about green transport. Well, I am ahead of the game, I already have green transport ... British racing green.
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dparslow |
#5 | |||
OldNoccer wrote: Steve, your car should be nearer 900kgs with an empty tank (fuel approx 1kg per 1L), engines are the same weight, the Mantara/LM/ Mantis have a lot of heavier front steering and suspension parts from the Sierra. I can`t see the IRS being any heavier than the live axle cars. The heavier chassis and body, air con (if fitted), the larger wheels and tyres. The 15" wheels/tyres on NCM 109H are a good 20kgs heavier than the Revolutions and tyres that were fitted on the Spyder! If it were possible to use them I would have as it`s a very easy way to lose another 20kgs, Mantis/LM wheels/tyres will be very heavy by comparison.
It`s not more power you need, it`s less weight and a few subtle mods and some not so subtle!
Last Edited By: dparslow Tue, 23-Jun-2009 15:57.
Edited 2 times.
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OldNoccer |
#6 | |||
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Funny about the wheels, I always thought that the bigger wheels with lower profile tyres were lighter - but then I never thought about the fact that a lot of
the wheel weight is in the rim.
I must redouble my efforts to find someone local to do the corner weights, then I can get the overall weight as well. Steve
There's a lot of talk these days about green transport. Well, I am ahead of the game, I already have green transport ... British racing green.
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brian coleman |
#7 | |||
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My (empty) Mantula weighed in at 880Kg at our local weighbridge
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OldNoccer |
#8 | |||
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Thats another live axle car I assume - but it is narrowing things down.
There's a lot of talk these days about green transport. Well, I am ahead of the game, I already have green transport ... British racing green.
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dparslow |
#9 | |||
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On live axle cars, the bare axle including diff, halfshafts and 5 links weighs approx 50kgs, that does not include the brakes and shockers as they will be near
enough the same on both axle types. A Sierra diff weighs 25kgs, so if IRS hubs, driveshafts and wishbones don`t weigh any more than about 25kgs I can`t see a
great deal of difference between the cars.
It`s not more power you need, it`s less weight and a few subtle mods and some not so subtle!
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OldNoccer |
#10 | |||
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Thanks for the info - the other potential weight difference relates to the IRS subframe, which is a separate steel frame metelastic bushed to the main chassis
(otherwise the diff noise would drive you nuts). But on the other hand the chassis work for the rear axle links isn't there. In fact we made a bit of a
discovery at Tatton park - the IRS boot is a lot wider than the live axle boot, as it extends full width, which allows the battery to go in the boot in the
drivers side rear wing, and allows the heater matrix to go in a new box under the bonnet where the battery was. So the change to IRS on the Mantula seems
associated with quite few mods.
I think you are right that the weight will be fairly close - in fact I think I have argued myself into thinking the IRS car may be a bit heavier.
There's a lot of talk these days about green transport. Well, I am ahead of the game, I already have green transport ... British racing green.
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Mike009 Gardner |
#11 | |||
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The data I`ve got on the Mantara is a weight of 1020 Kg , so many variances , must try it on the kitchen scales
Obviously the weight of a tank of petrol comes into it as `no petrol , no bhp |
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dparslow |
Corner weighting | #12 | ||
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After fitting the new wider track wishbones, rear axle and completing the body mods I roughly set the ride heights and then put it on the scales. The
results were quite alarming as you imagine the corner weights shouldn`t be too far out if all the ride height measurements are set equal on each axle
respectively.
It`s not more power you need, it`s less weight and a few subtle mods and some not so subtle!
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OldNoccer |
Corner weights | #13 | ||
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Corner weights can be deceptive, the ride height can be right, but the car can be effectively suspended on two diagonal wheels. That is why I have been looking
for a local shop with corner weight scales. I even went to Demon Tweeks (who sell corner weight scales) and saw they had a DSP600 alignment jig - but did they
have corner weight scales - nope - so how are they better than the local tyre shop - well not at all - what a let down.
So that 766kg is without any fuel and without the bonnet ? That is pretty good I would say, and you said your wheels were heavier due to 15". Presumably you have ally calipers and ally suspenders.. but the near 50:50 weight distribution is what I have worked out from measuring the spring compression on mine. It is really excellent. So what's next - a titanium propshaft ? Steve
There's a lot of talk these days about green transport. Well, I am ahead of the game, I already have green transport ... British racing green.
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dparslow |
#14 | |||
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After doing the sums I can get another 25 - 30kgs out of the car, but at a cost. The wheels are the easiest weight saving by going to magnesium or billet 3
piece items 12kgs - 13kgs to be saved there. The radiator and fans are very heavy at present, a custom built alloy unit would save me between 5 - 6kgs easily.
The rest I can get by changing the rear brake calipers to alloy items and thinner panelling on parts of the bodyshell.
It`s not more power you need, it`s less weight and a few subtle mods and some not so subtle!
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OldNoccer |
Mantula Weight | #15 | ||
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Today I got hold of Motor magazine's 1986 road test of the new V8 Mantula ( the post around here is very slow!),
and more weight figures appear...
Dry Weight (no fuel) 897.5kg, and weight as tested 1085 kg (not sure if this includes the tester or a spare wheel, as 190kg of fuel, is about 40 gallons !). That was XYD768 - a 3.5Efi car Steve
There's a lot of talk these days about green transport. Well, I am ahead of the game, I already have green transport ... British racing green.
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Martyn123 |
#16 | |||
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Steve,
Sorry to put a damper on the weight issue but isn't your chassis galvanised or am i thinking of somebody else ?. I was originally considering galvanising mine but on speaking to MHS the weight issue came up in that when the chassis is dipped it adds quite a lot of weight to it especially if it can't drain fully from the rails as it cools, hence I went for the Powder Coat option, Take it to a weighbridge and let us know, I certainly will when mine is up and running, Regards Martyn........ |
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OldNoccer |
#17 | |||
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You are right - mine has put on weight in the galvanising bath. But let us hope that what ran in, ran out again - I don't like the idea of any of the tubes
being full of zinc - and I don't suppose the galvanising company does either.
However, even if it has put on weight that way I do not mind. To be able to use it in any weather, and to visit my relatives at Xmas (700 mile round trip), that is fine. However I have not yet found a local weighbridge.. but I will find one eventually, and will let you all know. Steve
There's a lot of talk these days about green transport. Well, I am ahead of the game, I already have green transport ... British racing green.
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dparslow |
#18 | |||
MarcosMantula wrote: I`m sure Neal said his car has a galvanized chassis, even taking 25kgs off for the weight of the fuel it`s quite a bit heavier than standard.
It`s not more power you need, it`s less weight and a few subtle mods and some not so subtle!
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MarcosMantula |
#19 | |||
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Yep the weight I quoted was after galvanising. I do remember Rory saying that 2 people were able to load the chassis unto the trailer to bring it to the
galvanisers but 4 to load it to bring it back. There are certainly some areas where there is a significant amount of zinc still in the tubes, but, like Steve,
I prefer the piece of mind of not having to worry about rust for quite a few years.
neal |
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Captain Speaking |
#20 | |||
However I have not yet found a local weighbridge.. but I will find one eventually, and will let you all know.Steve, Have you thought about the scales at the local recycling/transfer centre? Given that they charge for the weight difference of vehicles between entering and exiting the facility, one would imagine that they have to be fairly accurate or the punters who pay for the privelige of dumping their rubbish at it would be kicking up a fuss. Additionally, my tip, has two sets of scales... one inbound an one outbound so if your's is the same you could compare the readings between the two and see if there was a discrepancy. I would imagine that the lads in the booth would be happy to help out, thereby as are most people who are asked for any sort of assistance when you are in Marcos. CJ
How do they know it was a Big Bang if there was no one around to hear it?
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